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SAP and SuccessFactors – “Proven” Integration is Hype

Early last month I wrote The Real Truth about SAP and SuccessFactors Integration to try to clear up some of the confusion in the marketplace. To my surprise I had several SAP customers reach out telling me they were very surprised at my article as it contradicted their understanding of message they were getting directly from SAP.  These customers had recently been got the impression that SAP and SuccessFactors had hundreds customers already successfully integrated using SAP “proven” solutions and sent me SAP presentations they had gotten in the last month at ASUG Events, HCI, HR Technology and other venues. Here is one of the slides in question.


As you can see SAP mentions some very large brand name companies that have already integrated SAP and SuccessFactors and given that this was shown eight months after the deal closed many customers just assumed they did it using SAP delivered integration. Unfortunately virtually none of these companies are live using a solution provided by SAP but I have good faith SAP would have explained that in detail if any customer had asked the “right” questions. Each of the customers listed in the slide (ie Siemens) had to build their own custom integration between SAP and SuccessFactors as prior to the acquisition their ONLY option was to take on this responsibility in-house and assume all the complexity, cost and long-term support. It is important to note that SAP would be up in arms if they saw an Oracle presentation that said “Hundreds of SAP HCM customers have successfully integrated to Taleo” but it is just as accurate as the slide above.

Hopefully customers understand that robust and seamless integration between two companies with different data models, that were competitors last year at this time, is a complex and difficult task. While this type of slide may have been okay in May the fact that is it still being shown gives the impression (right or wrong) there is “proven” integration that “hundreds” of companies are using and without reading the fine print gives the sense of a tried and true solution. SAP has recently made some progress as they released the First Standard Integration Package this week but all of the issues and concerns in my The Real Truth about SAP and SuccessFactors Integration are still valid as well as the potential licensing issues surrounding SAP Details Policies, Pricing for Linking Cloud Apps which has yet to be officially announced. The good news is that SAP/SuccessFactors have a solid roadmap in place in early/mid 2013 which assuming they can deliver on, as well as work out the licensing of the SAP HANA Cloud integration, the story could turn into a very positive one for customers.

As a consultant I know how important it is to level set expectations and work day in and day out to be trusted partner to my customers. It is a higher standard that I also expect out of SAP and recently am seeing an alarming trend across multiple offerings such as SAP/SuccessFactors Integration, Cloud Payroll, Employee Central and Financials OnDemand where the marketing message appears to be out of line from with where the products sit from a maturity standpoint. In some cases this causes problems all the way down the ecosystem as it becomes very difficult for SAP partners and consultants to be able to deliver these product to meet the lofty expectations that were cultivated through the marketing and sales process. It is easy to say that this is commonplace amongst competitors with a good example being Oracle Fusion which was heavily hyped before it was even released, and SAP is just following suit, but two recent examples from Workday caught my eye.

  • The CIO of Global Functions at HP Scott Spradley stood up and told the story at Workday Rising earlier this week of how Co-Founder David Duffield will tell you “what you need to hear” not always what you “want to hear” and in 2009 asked Workday “do you want HP as a customer” and heard “We want you as a customer but not right now as we want to wait until we are able to give you the best experience possible”.  He went on to tell the story of how this reinforced the trust he had in Workday and HP recently became Workday’s largest customers with over 300,000 employees. If SAP has a similar customer story it would great if they would share it on stage at Sapphire Orlando, as coming from a customer it was very compelling.
  • In this interview last month with Co-Founder Aneel Bhusri he was asked “How is the Financial Product” and responded with “We still have some work to do to bring it to parity with the legacy systems” and “We will have done three more updates, and I would like to say a year from now we’ll be showing off a few flagship customers in finance” and keep in mind this is a product that has been released for several years. Contrast that to recent blogs such as SAP FI OnDemand: Key Innovations and SAP FI OnDemand: The New FI Engine for the 21st Century about a new product that has just been released. I am not an expert in Finance but I know how difficult building a large enterprise software ready solution can be.

SAP has done a great job over the years cultivating relationships with almost 200,000 customers which is very impressive but each time the early product hype or sales claims do not match reality customers become disappointed and that trust chips away. Customers have long memories and ultimately will vote with their wallet, which is why SAP should do everything in its power to ensure they are telling the right message at the right time throughout all their channels especially when it comes to new offerings. For more insights you can follow me on twitter or join the SAP and SuccessFactors group.

11/09 Update – Upon reflecting I realized that the original “Stretching the Truth” title did not do a fair job of representing the the contents of the blog and changed it to ‘Proven Integration is Hype”

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  • Hi Jarret,

    A good blog and not only applicable to SuccessFactors, but to some of the marketing around Cloud and other areas of the enterprise software world - this isn't a problem exclusive to SAP. I do think SAP are playing it dangerously because they don't want to break the trust they have wit hcustomers. Telling customers the solution is integrated but then telling them they must buy and/or build integration will leave some people a bit unhappy. Marketing and Sales need to tell a more accurate picture of the true situation and your Workday examples are good examples of honesty and credibility.

    Best regards,


    • Thanks Luke as we both see this issue often from the perspective of having to implement solutions that the sales folks have made it sound like already exist or are plug in play when in some cases that is extremely far from the truth.

    • Thanks Vinay as this blog has been in mind my for a few week so glad I got a chance to write it as it is something I feel passionate about.

      Also thanks for being so active with lots of great questions/comments in the TweetChat a few weeks back.

  • Jarret,

    Proven Hybrid means simply that. There are hundreds of customers that use SAP HCM and SF BizX today, so your statement about complex and difficult does not ring true.

    The well known brands are a just a sampling.

    In fact, Proven Hybrid was a common 'thread' that our leadership alluded to in expalining the acquisition.

    Your premise that SAP is not being genuine in marketing is false. SAP has delivered on the roadmap, the most recent example being this week for the pay for perfomance process integartion to support the hybrid.

    • While I can respect the fact that you have jumped to the defense of your employer do you honestly believe that a company like Siemens mentioned above did not have a complex integration between SAP and SuccessFactors when they did it several years ago, so I not sure what part you are saying "doesnt ring true". Not one of the new SAP HCM/SuccessFactors Hybrid customers can use the "proven" solution built by Siemens as it was a custom development on their side.

      I have been on the ground at many large Fortune 500 companies and can tell you first hand that integration between SAP HCM and any outside vendor is often extremely complex and difficult due to the different data models and attention to detail needed for "seamless integration" to occur between often what are competing companies. This is one of the reasons I have said from day 1 that integration between SAP and SuccessFactors is extremely important for customers and while I agree there have been steps made to move forward it is pretty clear there is still a ways to go.

      I think that slide is genuine "if" customers ask some detailed questions and if they are told the right answer but in most cases in a 1hr session the message is SAP is already integrated with hundreds of customers so I have nothing to worry about.  While in fact they have to worry about NW PI or wait for SAP HANA Cloud Integration (Feb 2013), potential licensing (NW Cloud), wait for roadmap items to be delivered etc. 

  • Hi Jarret,

    whilst I have been telling people much the same thing ("be aware that this is integration not using the SAP delivered integration packs") since I first saw that slide (or a version of it) about 7 or 8 months ago, I don't think SAP and SuccessFactors are really stretching the truth that much. (at least not in my experience)

    Should sales people be careful that they aren't giving a misleading pitch - absolutely. Yet in all the times I've seen that slide I've never been sold the line that it represents standard delivered integration.

    so I would probably disagree with your statement:

    What SAP is not telling customers is that virtually none of these companies are live using a solution provided by SAP.

    Because in my experience, any customer, consultant or analyst that is willing to ask, will and has been told openly. Perhaps the slide isn't great for conveying that if you just glance at it, but then if you're in change of allocating budgets and advising businesses on which direction to take vis-a-vis SuccessFactors you should be doing a little more than just glancing! (I would hope! and if not, perhaps you need to pay someone to help you look a little closer! 😀 )

    Also, the reason that I don't see this stretching the truth too much is that the future of integration is likely to be similar. It will still take a reasonable amount of custom work to build a fully integrated SuccessFactors to SAP ERP system, the complexities of the solutions will require additional build effort above and beyond the standard offerings. AS you know the integration packs won't deliver everything, merely because everything is so freaking different depending which customer implementation you are looking at.

    I haven't seen the examples that you mention about overselling Cloud Payroll, Employee Central and Financials OnDemand occurring either, I guess the sales teams in the US are a little more aggressive with their sales pitches than over here in AU (or I lead a sheltered life 😉 )

    However, I certainly like the idea of sales and also high level execs doing sales, in general, presenting a realistic view of the solutions available and selling the great stuff that is there, whilst not glossing over too much the gaps. It's what I do with my clients, but to do that you have to be conversing at a certain level already. I think perhaps this slide isn't quite aimed at that "higher" level conversation, more the coffee table book to keep you amused whilst you wait to have that chat.

    Perhaps instead we should be discussing the issue of whether or not NetWeaver Cloud PI will replace Boomi as the free integration layer offered to SuccessFactors customers? It is a more relevant and important one to chase! no? 😈

    • Thanks for the detailed comment and you bring up some very good points.

      On of my goals in writing a blog like this was to help educate customers so they DO ask the next level questions when they see a slide such as this and even go a few levels deeper so they have a ful understanding of their options.  A great example was most including me didnt fully understand the cost implications for the various integration platform options until a few weeks ago as assumptions were made and the layers of the onion not peeled back (I have two young kids and watched Shrek last weekend) 🙂

      Two point you made that are extremely important and spot on are

      - Will NW Cloud PI which is now called SAP HANA Cloud Integration be a free integration layer for SAP HCM & SuccessFactors customers.

      - Most customers will still have some complexities even after SAP has provided their integration solutions due to complexities or customizations already made in order to successfully integrate. I will be a sweet spot for consulting for the next several years if you asked me.

      On a side I love comments that are mini-blogs as it helps advance the discussion so really appreciate it.

    • Thanks for the comment Judson and while blogs like this dont make SAP happy I have found that at higher levels within SAP they can be very receptive to different and critical points of view. 

      Could resist seamless integration as I hear it several times each day and it is hardly ever true.  Have a good weekend.

    • Judson, I am not getting red faced. And I don't think a lot of folks around here are. When you have an open community, you have to be open to all kinds of feedback, good and bad.The only thing I am usually getting a bit itchy about is when I see criticism that's very general, not backed up with specifics, or emotional. Jarret here, for example, has specific examples and allows us to engage, which makes for a great platform for dialog.

        • Hey Judson, bring it! I consider you an expert here and we really need to hear from the experts. I am not sure if putting all the feedback into the community immediately is always the best idea, but if that is the choice people make, so be it. What we are thinking about right now is to pull together an advisory council here, after SAPPHIRE NOW Madrid, and probably even after FKOM 2013 to have a diverse group of experts that are deeply pre-briefed and that can help us with the co-innovation strategy we have around SAP Financials OnDemand. This is a market that is just starting to develop (all analysts we talked to agree) and we have so many moving pieces of innovation that we have a great opportunity to engage with the eco-system right from the start.

          • You're a good guy, Christian. I haven't seen this level of openness on the ByD side, so it's encouraging that you're looking to the experts for feedback. That's how you'll get to a rock-solid product.

          • thanks, of course, we've always thought we were doing this and getting lots of feedback but probably did not do enough. I think the big change is that SAP is really "getting" cloud much more than ever before . this isn't just about deployment, it's a mind set and cloud/crowd sourcing HAS to be part of it

  • Hi Jarret - Yes, customers do have long memories and maybe they will remember the gap (or in some cases, the lag) between sales hype and product functionality that has existed for quite a while now. It's really nothing new, but it is something that is predictable and thus customers can plan appropriately. Not all will do that, of course, and it's good to have other points of view to make sure customers go into these things with good information and realistic expectations.

    • Thanks for the comment Steve and I am hoping that with more information available in the marketplace these days customer will do some research prior to having sales calls to ask the tough questions so they can plan appropriately.

      That said my two examples above show it doesn't always have to be that way to still be successful.  On a side I know that we dont expect customers to plan around what we say as we hope they trust and can rely on us to give them all the information they need to make an informed decision and if we cant they should find someone that will.

  • Hi Jarret, thanks for the blog, you know we welcome open discussion and feedback! And thanks for putting in a plug for my blogs about SAP Financials OnDemand. I have a question regarding the following quote:

    <<Contrast that to recent blogs such as SAP FI OnDemand: Key Innovations and SAP FI OnDemand: The New FI Engine for the 21st Century about a new product that has just been released.>>

    You mention this in the context of stretching the truth and creating hype around a new SAP product. I wonder if you realize that the core of SAP Financials OnDemand has been in development over 5 years and is running in more than 1000 customers inside of SAP Business ByDesign? I wonder if you could elaborate a little bit what specific point in this blog you find stretches the truth so I can respond in more detail 🙂

    I'd also like to point your attention to one of the last sentences in my blog:

    <<Other vendors might, with HALF OF WHAT WE HAVE, easily claim that they have re-invented financials. We won't be so bold. We are happy to say we are bringing all of our financial expertise as well as our bundled innovation power to bear on our new financials solution in the cloud. It is the beginning of a journey, and we are inviting customers and partner to co-innovate with us.>>

    I wonder what your specific problem is with the above statement? I fully agree with your sentiment that we should not hype things up beyond reason, but at the same time, many customers INSIST on us telling them what we are planning way ahead of time.

    Looking forward to your reply.

    • Thanks for the Comment Christian and as mentioned I am not an expert in the FI area but many of the recent FI OnDemand articles have been pretty bold in their messaging and I have left comments on several. I would consider FI OnDemand a new product since it is being positioned for Medium/Larger enterprises which are typically quite a bit more complex than the ~1000 customers using the ByD FI solution given that ByD is often used at smaller customers (under 1K employees).

      I might not have picked the two best examples and may update the blog as I didnt notice your "It is the beginning of a journey, and we are inviting customers and partner to co-innovate with us" as that is exactly the right tone but did notice "or simply couple a relevant best-of-breed solution such as SuccessFactors Employee Central or Ariba vendor management into the solution with a minimum of integration hassle" so lets start there to keep this conversation moving. Can you elaborate on the exact integration technology, costs and if it is currently available on how a customer would integrate Employee Central to FI OnDemand.

      • Thanks, let's keep this thread going, but after SAPPHIRE please, i am about 30 ft under water right now with prep. Suffice it to say that we are rapidly learning as we engage with more and more large customers. Our experience with large customers using us for 3-tier ERP and subsidiaries is helping us with building out the integration scenarios. As we go out into larger accounts, we will encounter a number of different integration scenarios, as customers typically standardize on a certain integration stack. We have our tool kit with SAP HANA Cloud, including SAP NetWeaver Cloud, but there is also options to use scenarios around Boomi and Cast Iron, and more... Integration is not a simple, one-size fits all game, and we need to stay open and flexible too allow customers to leverage their investments. I know this sounds vague, but I'll be able to say more about this after SAPPHIRE. I promise to create a specific blog post about integration before Dec after we have validated several ideas with customers and partners which angles to emphasize.

  • Hi Jarret and everyone else as well-

    First, I am grateful to Jarrret for taking time and writing
    blogs and keeping the conversation active and relevant. I do that as well
    except it is usually in my head while reading relevant work related articles
    etc. Jarret actually shares it so kudos to him.

    Secondly, I think that with few exceptions the world of software
    marketing is filled with stories of how a product will help out and look great
    doing so. What is almost never provided, in a clear, concise manner, is the
    foundation or co-requisite elements necessary to achieve the ultimate software Zen
    state portrayed in the sales and marketing information. usually it is not intentionally
    false or misleading but ends up being so because the foundational information
    is not provided. A simple example could be the MSS marketing information. I
    have yet to see it clearly shown or stated that MSS is completely dependent
    upon an organizational structure that models the desired hierarchy or related
    managerial components. By now almost every SAP practitioner knows this but the
    sales pitch is not usually targeting those who know. So what happens is the
    target of the pitch does not know the right questions to ask. Workday seems to
    have a sense of this and helps by guiding the conversation somewhat. I have
    been through many oracle ERP and SAP sales presentations on behalf of clients
    and as a potential customer. The presentations always focus on a fully deployed
    suite of products and environments. If the audience does not know this, that they
    have to ask specifically how some of the advertised Zen state is achieved, it
    is not mentioned.

    I certainly have never been to an SAP presentation where misinformation
    was deliberately presented or where they dodged questions. However, I have been
    at many (SAP and other software vendors) were there were key questions not asked
    and the vendors did not think (or choose not to) to provide a baseline of
    "what you need to know" concepts that are the prerequisite to the software
    nirvana being presented.

    Most customers want to be prepared for success and SAP and other
    vendor could help this by presenting a more complete concept off their
    products. in the meantime I will keep reading Jarrett’s blogs and leverage his
    hard work to increase my own knowledge.

    • Thanks for the great comment Greg and the kind words and I wont lie I got a chuckle when I read "I do that as well but normally in my head" 🙂

      What did you think of Workday examples of when was the last time you heard SAP say that a product offering that was released would be large enterprise ready a year from now when it fact everyone knows it takes time for some offerings to become mature.

      • "What did you think of Workday examples of when was the
        last time you heard SAP say that a product offering that was released would be
        large enterprise ready a year from now when it fact everyone knows it takes
        time for some offerings to become mature."

        I think it is simply a different way of presenting a path to
        a viable end product. All software products have an iterative lifecycle and no
        vendor ever gets it right the first time. Each of them need to engage and
        deploy their products in the real world and then adjust it and make it a better
        and more valuable. The trick is figuring out the least total cost (in value to
        all parties not just monetary cost to the vendor) way to do this.

        In my opinion, SAP is very effective at getting it right
        down to a detail level, but takes a while to do this. They are terrible about providing
        clear and concise information about their products. This is not new, I still do
        not know what new dimension is or was, I do enjoy SAP work but ENJOY SAP is
        still a mystery to me. The path to the current core ECC was a not a straight
        one and I do not expect any change in their style of messaging or product naming
        or any other wrapping on their products. I do expect that they will be powerful,
        effective and beneficial for many customers when they finally settle out and
        get the core stable and deployed.

        Workday seems more open about the process and have the benefit
        of no legacy products or customers to worry about. Whether they are just the
        new cool thing, in a seeming migration of IT foundations and software, or a viable
        long-term company that will one day have to adjust to a changing technical foundation
        themselves remains to be seen. Each customer will need to analyze themselves
        and the vendors to enable good product choices. Not sure why we seem to struggle
        with software as a product more than we do with other products. Maybe because
        it is relatively new so the channels of production and sales are evolving more
        than other products.

  • Hi Jarret,

    As the author of the chart you posted I’d like to respond. In the same vein that you are seeking truth to better support customers, I’m sure you can appreciate my surprise at your interpretation of my content.

    The whole point of this chart is to openly share with customers how hundreds of organizations run SAP and SuccessFactors today with technology that was available already PRIOR to the acquisition. This content has been presented at countless customer and partner meetings/events, including HR Insider and SAPPHIRE Orlando.  Built into presenting this slide we specifically call out the point you make as well: this is “customer managed integration”, i.e. it’s the customer’s burden to implement and maintain the integration. So to be clear, delivering packaged integration for SAP ERP with SuccessFactors cloud modules is what SAP now addresses better than any other player in the market.

    You also point to the integration packages we have delivered – the first one we delivered in May at SAPPHIRE. To be clear, the package we made available this week is the first one that leverages NetWeaver PI as middleware, which you are misrepresenting in your truncated link.

    I really appreciate your passion about HCM and SAP. Your feedback and blogs help us at SAP to stay grounded and improve. I hope my comments here have cleared up any confusion about facts that appear to be represented out of context. Just to be sure, I will follow up with you directly to answer any outstanding questions.

    • thanks, Oliver. I was about to respond myself.

      @Jarret: I think we all need to be careful not to take individual slides from more comprehensive slidedecks out of context - just posting the one slide from the slidedeck is not telling the full story. And I think we must all do all we can to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so that no-one needs to accuse anyone of stretching the truth.

      The point we have been trying to make with this slide since day 1 after the acquisition is that we (SAP and SuccessFactors) did not invent the hybrid model, but that it was invented by the many customers using SAP and SuccessFactors before the acquistion. Is that the end of the integration journey? No, no, and no again: we (SAP and SuccessFactors) are doing a lot to take it to the next level of excellence, building on the experience of those many customers who have built their own integration, trying to understand their pain-points (I think we can all agree that csv probably isn't the be-all-and-end-all of integration) and strive to get better and better over time. THAT is our commitment, the single slide you have posted and commented on here describes the BEGINNING of that journey, not the end.

      Best regards, Paul

      • Interesting comment Paul as I have seen all those slide decks as well as how there were presented and would be curious as to what slide helps put the one I mentioned above "back in context"

        Since SAP has started to deliver most robust integration for customers that are using NW PI as of last week it is my feeling this slide has no place in any future presentations and SAP should be showing actual customers that are using the CSV file option or the new integration option as to me that shows a clear picture.

        I did make a point to spell out if SAP can deliver on their roadmap promises and work out the licensing issues with SAP HANA Cloud Integration we could be in a good place by the end of H1 2013. I have a lot of respect for the hard work the integration team is doing having been on the other end trying to integrate SAP with Best of Breed vendors in the past so I know some of the challenges first hand

        The last point is the "truth" was not only specific to the integration and it may have been a bit of sensational wording but I have seen a repeated examples where products are overhyped before they are ready.

        • Hi Jarret,

          Thanks for another excellent blog. Just wanted to pick up your point on the above slide not having a place in future...I think otherwise. The slide still correctly shows different SFSF integration options for SAP and non-SAP customers. While SAP delivers integration content based on File/PI, other vendors like Dell, IBM, etc won't be using this content and will offer their own integration content based on other integration approaches as highlighted in the slide. What SAP probably needs to add is another slide which discusses the pre-delivered SAP-SFSF integration content in a bit more detail.

          My 2 cents.



          • Thanks for the comments and kind words Shehryar and the part of the slide I think has no place is listing all the logo's and saying hundreds of customer 9 months after the deal has closed as it gives the impression (intended or not) that they are using SAP solutions (what I heard from several customers). Hopefully it is not included in any presentations happening in Madrid this week and being replaced with customers that are actually using a SAP delivered integration offering between SAP HCM and SuccessFactors.

            As far as other vendors it will be interesting to see how that unfolds as this article makes it clear SAP is looking to use their own technologies as much as possible (which makes sense)


    • Thanks for the comment Oliver and I appreciate your point of view as well I have sat through maybe of the presentation and heard how it has been presented as well as how it has been understood by some customers. Off course any customer can successfully with time, effort and money build their own integration so what exactly was that the purpose of this slide when SAP has promised all along that THEY would build the basic two way integration between SAP and SuccessFactors per Jim Snabe would be "out of the box" and "easier, cheaper and better than anything on the market"

      Since SAP has started to deliver most robust integration for customers that are using NW PI as of last week it is my feeling this slide has no place in any future presentations and SAP should be showing actual customers that are using the CSV file option or the new integration option as to me that shows a clear picture.  On that note how many customer are live using the both of the options as I assume you had some ramp up customers on the functionality announced earlier this week.

      • As stated before, the purpose of the slide is to show that even without the integration we now deliver "out of the box" many customers have decided to go for an hybrid deployment with a custom-developed integration. From those customers we learn that the benefits of the more agile cloud modules on top of their robust ERP backend outweigh the cost of integration. And it is at the essence of our loosely couple suite strategy that we keep the benefits of agility, but take those integration costs down. Also going forward I expect some customers to decide for custom integration given their very specific requirements -- so I do see a place for sharing those references going forward.

        The integration package we delivered this week went straight into general availability with no ramp-up. We do have live customers on the package we delivered in May.

        • Not to be a stickler for words but the ONLY integration delivered "out of the box" at this time is the one way CSV file load from SAP HCM to SuccessFactors or the new integration package but customer NEED to have NW PI installed which I have heard is under 40% globally for SAP HCM customers.  If this number is incorrect please let me know.

          That said I fully agree with you and Chris up above that many customers will need a more robust solution due to their specific requirement which is why the approach SAP is rolling out makes sense.

          Last many customers are using the CSV file option and when do you expect the first customer to be live with the integration package released this week.  These are numbers that customer care about as many understand the value of SAP being responsible for the integration vs building a complete custom solution.

          • With key HCM events coming up early 2013 with HR 2013 and SAPPHIRE in Orlando we certainly want to have customers and partners share with other customers their going live experience with a middleware-based integration approach. Some 50 customers are currently rolling out the May integration pack.

  • Nice blog, Jarret! I appreciate the fact that you do not pull punches nor hold back your words. "The truth will set you free" as they say. haha....thanks for filterting the truth from amongst the marketing noise.

  • Speaking of "hype" I found it interesting to see some folks at SAP consider the company is now a "Pioneer in the Cloud". Something tells me some of the long time SaaS competitors would have some thoughts on that statement.

    Obviously one could say SAP buying SuccessFactors who was very early in the cloud now makes SAP a pioneer but its a real stretch if you has me.