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Author's profile photo Laure Cetin

Announcing points for Idea Place activities

Never heard of Idea Place?

You must be new to SCN! 😉

Idea Place is a crowdsourcing tool for anyone who wants to submit an idea to SAP. Anyone can access Idea Place. SCN members can use their SCN user ID, customers can use their SAP Passport, available via Service Marketplace

Thanks to Idea Place, SAP users can suggest improvements of an SAP solution, service or process, and they can also submit ideas to enhance the SAP Community Network experience. It is encouraged to use Idea Place as the primary place to request enhancements, since the Product Managers at SAP now use Idea Place to capture ideas and requirements.

 

Because it is open and the purpose is collaboration and influence, other community members, customers, partners can comment on ideas, submit their vote to support an idea that they believe should be implemented. Those ideas that have the most votes will be considered for implementation by SAP.

Kuhan Milroy gave a preview in April and Now Open: Idea Place (beta) – Influence SAP Products & Services provided extensive information about Idea Place, so make sure you read their blogs.

 

The purpose of my blog is to inform you that from now on, we will be assigning SCN points to Idea Place activities – see the details below. As part of the SCN Collaboration Team, I strongly believe that Idea Place helps the community to articulate their requests to improve SCN, and that it will help us prioritze the ideas that the Community feels most strongly about.

Points are a way for us to thank you for participating in Idea Place, for providing feedback and sparking lively discussions that will help refine ideas before SAP considers them for implementation.

 

Idea creation:

10 points to the person who submitted the idea.
1 point per vote, 2 points per comment: given to the idea creator.

 

Idea comments:

5 points to a person who comments on an idea.

And by comment, we don’t mean “great!” but a constructive comment that will help the community refine the idea and discuss details that the idea creator may not have thought of.

 

Idea implementation:

40-120 points to the person who submitted the idea that was implemented.

 

No points will be given to people voting on an idea.

Points will be assigned on a monthly basis, since this is a manual process for now.

 

These points, like all SCN points, will be assigned to your SCN user ID. Whether you are a newbie on SCN or an active member of the community, your points will count towards your lifetime points and towards Active Contributor Status: A 12-month rolling period. As always, refer to the details of the SCN Reputation Program Overview and the FAQ for more information about the point system and the benefits associated with Active Contributor status.

If you are savvy about the point system, you may wonder about this last detail: the point category for these points will be “General”.

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      22 Comments
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      Author's profile photo Chris Paine
      Chris Paine
      But seriously - why are we doing this? Myself and many others have been active in Idea Place ever since the certificate login/SMP user logon issue was resolved.

      Do we have any research/metrics/belief that adding points into the mix is going to improve Idea Place? There are countless blogs where we complain about how the quality of SCN has been sliding, and most point the finger at the use of points and people gaming the system to gain points.

      Do we really want really poor quality ideas appearing in Idea Place, just because it means that the submitter can gain 10 points - perhaps I'm pessimistic, but I believe it will happen.

      There isn't even in Idea Place (as far as I can see anyway) a way to report point gaming (or other abusive behaviour). How do we stop this from happening?

      Much as I like and sometimes dislike SCN points, it was nice to see that Idea Place was functioning without them. A Julius Day all year round you might say.

      In any case, I hope that some metrics are being kept about the number and quality of the submissions and how they might vary given this change. Perhaps it would be good to be able to present these at some point later next year, it might give the endless debate about SCN points a little perspective.

      Any-which-way, I hope that more people start using this excellent new area in SCN, perhaps points will help with that.

      Cheers,
      Chris

      Author's profile photo Tom Cenens
      Tom Cenens
      Hello Chris

      You will always have people who try to abuse a process in one way or another.

      It's up to the moderators to keep the situation in hand and improve the experience when it proves to be insufficient.

      As with not rewarding a comment "great idea" I assume they will also not award points for topics ideas that are created just to receive points.

      I would prefer having an extensive list already avaible (which already gets rid of a lot of argument on rewarding points for a topic idea).

      At the moment in my opinion it's a lot of effort to create an idea to be able to create an idea.

      As an end-user is doesn't really work that well for me, it was somewhat confusing to get started even though a video demo was available.

      Kind regards

      Tom

      Author's profile photo Chris Paine
      Chris Paine
      Tom,
      But what we are doing here is creating a desire for people to abuse the process - previously there was none and minimal need for moderation.
      Do we really want to create a situation where it becomes needed?
      There are currently no Idea Place moderators in the same sense of SCN forum mods. Do we really want SAP employees to be spending time checking that people are not point gaming - rather than reviewing an hopefully actioning the ideas?
      Anyway - just my thoughts!
      Good to see that you made the effort to try in Idea Place though - marks you out as someone who cares about the SAP experience and not necessarily the SCN points.
      Cheers,
      Chris
      Author's profile photo Tom Cenens
      Tom Cenens
      Hello Chris

      I do care about the community, I posted my opinion on your thoughts a few replies above.

      Kind regards

      Tom

      Author's profile photo Chris Paine
      Chris Paine
      Hi Tom,

      I hope you understood that I do believe that you do care about the community - my comment was meant to be convey that. If it didn't sorry - it was meant to. If it did - well I've just said it again! 🙂

      I think we do need to have open debate about this topic, as you mentioned one person's bad idea might be another's good one.

      But if you can find any way to get 1000 people to vote on any idea in Idea Place, friends or not, I think you'll earn everyone's respect!

      Cheers - and thanks for the putting the other side of the argument,

      Chris

      Author's profile photo Tom Cenens
      Tom Cenens
      Hello Chris

      Yes I know you meant it that I do care.

      I have many friends you know 😉

      Debate is good and giving feedback is also great for further improving an idea. I like the concept for sure.

      I want to start some ideas but I cannot put up ideas because the categories don't yet exist. I posted two possible new categories to vote on but I wonder how long it will take before those are available.

      Kind regards

      Tom

      Author's profile photo Chris Paine
      Chris Paine
      Also - if the idea which has been raised is particularly silly or bad, and I want to comment on how particularly bad it is, I'm going to be giving the creator of the idea 2 SCN points?

      Not that I care about the points, but do we really want to reward bad ideas?

      Author's profile photo Tom Cenens
      Tom Cenens
      Hello Chris

      An idea is a subjective matter, you might think it sucks, I might love it.

      Bad ideas are better than no ideas at all.

      You need to encourage people to put idea's out there, people like being rewarding, most like to have a shiny star next to their name (I have to admit I like it).

      The same concept is used in many products nowadays, games for example offer medals, collectables, achievements etc because people like achieving things.

      Many great leaders, inventors, innovators had many bad ideas as well before they hit that one, great idea.

      A bad idea can be redefined into a good idea by iteration, by giving feedback, by involving community members etc.

      How are you going to avoid someone with a 1000 friends to not have his/her idea on top if he makes all his friends vote on it, even though the idea might not be great ?

      I often have doubts on system like voting for your favorite X-factor singer as the family, friends of that person invest a lot of money into the voting, possibly altering the result in the end. The more global voting is done, the less this effect will be but still are you sure it would have been the same result ?

      In my opinion it can be a measure but it shouldn't be the final result. At the moment it becomes a top idea, I would suggest sitting together with / contacting the customer base and checking if the interest is real.

      Kind regards

      Tom

      Author's profile photo Chris Paine
      Chris Paine
      And so - because I feel strongly about this, and not because I want any points... (although I'm almost up to having that glittery bluey silver star against my name) - I've created an idea for people to vote on.
      https://ideas.sap.com/ideas/2203
      Tom may vote against it, but I hope others will support this.

      Cheers,
      Chris

      PS Laure, think you're doing a great job and really value that you're promoting Idea Place - I too think it's great, but I just don't like this particular proposal.

      PPS - I chose the spanner icon for my avatar in Idea Place, because I'm a bit of a tool 😉

      Author's profile photo Otto Gold
      Otto Gold
      I support Chris on this one.
      Idea place is not a place for talks (which would bring one some points), it is a place for ideation.
      Ok, when the idea is "implemented" then it all had sense and then let´s give the points to the people who help. But for any comment? Any vote? No way...
      Maybe you could finetune the process before a "productive start"? So the points would be granted only when the idea gets "implemented" and not for "every" comment etc.?
      I would like it better.
      best Otto
      Author's profile photo Tobias Hofmann
      Tobias Hofmann
      "others have been active in Idea Place ever since the certificate login/SMP user logon issue was resolved"

      Still waiting to get SSO for my p-user ... starting to thinking that this will never happen 🙁

      Author's profile photo Kuhan Milroy
      Kuhan Milroy
      The SSO for p-users (and all x-users) is coming. This is not an incremental fix and will be part of the upgrade. I've mentioned before but the trade-off to get Idea Place started in 2010 (or even started at all) required a trade-off in authentication.

      Cheers

      Kuhan

      Author's profile photo Otto Gold
      Otto Gold
      Good news, thanks for the update, Kuhan. And of course for the good work.
      Se you on Idea place:))
      cheers Otto
      Author's profile photo Chris Paine
      Chris Paine
      Thanks Kuhan! it will be really good to enable the rest of the community to participate!

      Thanks for persevering with this issue!

      Chris

      Author's profile photo Tobias Hofmann
      Tobias Hofmann
      "Do we really want really poor quality ideas"

      is this: https://ideas.sap.com/ideas/1607 a high quality idea ?

      br, Tobias

      Author's profile photo Chris Paine
      Chris Paine
      And what about the one that got Natasha to TechEd...

      https://ideas.sap.com/ideas/1519

      (perhaps that one had more validity).

      At the moment I think we all want to see wider adoption of this area - so any stunts that raise the awareness would be welcome. But perhaps the time has come for either a Idea Place Cafe area for light hearted Ideas like this, and/or some stricter moderation.

      Author's profile photo Tobias Hofmann
      Tobias Hofmann
      Copy&pasted this one too, but deleted before posting.

      There is a strong support for considering this as a show case for Idea Place (SAP Mentor of the Month: John Appleby, #nataschatoteched - A tale of two cities., The specified item was not found.), but as long as SAP don't want to use Idea Place as a travel agency, you are right. Not a great example.

      If I'm mistaken and Idea Place is a travel system for sponsored flights: I will create an Idea to send you, business class, of course, to all TechED, SAPPhire, Roadshows, HCM, BI, CRM, SRM, whatever events. (btw: if this works, can you create the same idea for me?)

      br, Tobias

      Author's profile photo Tom Cenens
      Tom Cenens
      Hello Laure

      I agree on the fact that it's a good idea to hand out SCN points.

      I checked out the idea place but I immediately had some thoughts on it:

      I think you would get more ideas if there is already a broader range of products / solutions available to post idea's on. Major products, SAP Netweaver, ERP for example.

      Perhaps take the list of SCN forum topics, that should cover a lot of content already and it's recognizable for community members.

      I'm awaiting eagerly to start placing some idea's on the idea place.

      Kind regards

      Tom

      Author's profile photo Otto Gold
      Otto Gold
      Hello Tom,
      not all the product/service managers in SAP are reading IP ideas. So you could get a topic/ category for your ideas, but these will be left untouched for some time. That in my opinion would not be very motivating.
      The topics which are covered on IP right now are reviewed by the SAP people and one can expect some outcome or at least to have the idea considered.
      Cheers Otto
      Author's profile photo Laure Cetin
      Laure Cetin
      Blog Post Author
      OK, I'll admit I was expecting some "caustic" comments when I wrote this blog with "points" in the title. But wow I didn't expect that many!

      Sorry if I took so long to respond publically here, I had to put some thoughts around this and, I have to say, make sure that I don't take anything personally. Thanks Chris for understanding my position 😉

      I do have to thank you all for being so passionate about SCN, and about the point system. I know the system how it is today has some disadvantages and I can tell you we're currently taking a close look at it, thinking to introduce additional ways to measure contributions and to let the community decide what is quality content.

      To answer all of your comments on this page:

      1/ Tom: Thank you for your suggestions to improve Idea Place. I have asked someone who manages Idea Place to comment here on this page. There may be delays due to the vacation period. Please keep in mind that Idea Place is fairly new (in terms of launch and concept) - and as Otto mentions, it is important to have SAP Product Management involved and committed to make ideas come true. This may not be the case for all SAP products yet. My colleagues will confirm here if my assumptions are correct.

      2/ Adding points on Idea Place is not meant to improve Idea Place! It is meant to say thank you, we've seen how much you are involved and we thank you for the contributions, the support, the ideas. See further below my thoughts about the SCN point system.

      3/ Moderation and Abuse reports: Currently ideas and comments are moderated for what they bring in respect to SAP products, solutions, services, or SCN. If moderation on Idea Place becomes too cumbersome solely because of the points (and I would say that our tolerance levels would be low: ideas and comments should be moderated, but not point hunting behaviors, I agree) – so if this is getting "out of control", rest assured that we will take measures, and maybe just reward implemented ideas with points.
      I’ll ask the Idea Place team what they think about an abuse button for now.

      3/ Tobias: About this specific idea that you mention https://ideas.sap.com/ideas/1607 - I see these types of ideas as private jokes among a group of people who know each other well and want to have fun. I know these people and I have a great amount of respect for them, but I personally don't think Idea Place is the right channel for this. But this is not my decision so the least I can do is support a "coffee corner" of ideas meant to be fun, or to engage a certain group of people around a certain topic at a certain time (and no points there). I am waiting to hear back from the Idea Place team on that, we’ve taken this offline.

      4/ Tom: I agree with you. Yes we need to welcome all types of ideas and it's up to SAP to decide which ones are good enough and "implementable". An idea that gets implemented is thousand times more meaningful than any amount of points. As I said a bit earlier, we will closely observe how Idea Place evolves with the points.

      I would like to finish by defending the point system. Right now this is the only programmatic way to recognize contributions, and I want to highlight "programmatic". Of course, outstanding content, often from well-known community members, gets highlighted via various channels (e.g. home pages etc); but points are a way to identify how active a member is, and I also see them as a way to thank them for their contributions. And I am not going to repeat myself about the value of the vast array of contributions on SCN. But believe me, I often hear how much some community members appreciate when we recognize their work at an event (work that benefits the overall community); or when we send them an email to acknowledge their recent active contributor status, etc. In the spirit of recognition, points should be given to anyone contributing on SCN, when technically possible. It is sometimes a daunting manual task, but it is the only way to treat everyone with fairness. This is why all areas of SCN are subject to the point system, Idea Place included. Yes, points sometimes generate behaviors that myself I find difficult to believe are really happening, we sometimes observe an eagerness to accumulate points just for the sake of total points, to be at the top of a list, etc. But many unspoken times, it is nice for people to see that SCN observes, recognizes, rewards contributions.

      I want 2011 to be the year of a constructive discussion around recognition, points, and other ways to recognize quality content. To balance the point system. I don't want it to go away.
      I know I may never convince you guys with my words and my good intentions, but I hope to be empowered in 2011 so that my actions convince you!

      All the best,
      Laure

      Author's profile photo Kuhan Milroy
      Kuhan Milroy
      Hi, I am excited to see all the responses. To close the loop on some of Laure's comments and respond to feedback in the thread, I thought it would be easier to summarize.

      RE: SSO for  p-users, I added a comment, below. Yes, it is coming.

      Points: I am an avid Crystal Reports-er, so if you have ideas on some abuse reports for Idea Place, let me know and I will aim to add them to the weekly reports. Sorry, *internal* only for now, we don't want any public flogging. 🙂

      RE: the SPAM button - There are down votes... though as discussed this confuses a bad idea with SPAM which is akin to the old "empty" vs "NULL".
      Ideally, the up votes would help this to. Ideas that are old and have low votes would be less noticed and ultimately - die.

      Ironically, there isn't a SPAM or ABUSE button idea request. However, in the mean time, if you add a comment of SPAM!, I will have a report identify these ones. Yes?

      RE: A place for "Fun" or 'highly creative ideas'. I've thrown the idea back to Laure to see how to handle.

      As for a broader range of products: Yes that is the intent! Idea Place is available for teams to use and SCN *sells* the story. But, does it make sense for every product?
      - Do existing provide enough feedback?
      - Does the team have bandwidth in the next year to implement ideas?
      - Is the next releases 4 years away?

      It is not always a slam dunk that it makes sense to use Idea Place. As Otto called out, if there is no one to "listen" then SAP is setting false hope. So we need to find the areas it makes sense as well as get teams on-board.

      Idea Place is starting out and though there has been a lot of support, the voting numbers are low for many ideas. Really, there are enough users, developers, CIOs to have 100s if not 1000s of votes on ideas. This would really help drive the case to some of the teams (and senior management) for a much broader adoption. I know searching for ideas is not easy in this release so this will be improved in the upgrade. But imagine, if Idea Place has a request for *Business Process Management* https://ideas.sap.com/ideas/1360 with 1000 votes, then the teams *need* to at least give an answer of why not? But 22, still too low.

      It really is a bit of chicken and egg problem too. People can't vote if there are no ideas but new ideas aren't allowed unless there is an internal team supporting. I am starting to see reflections of Geoffrey Moore's Crossing the Chasm. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossing_the_Chasm  Where the innovators get the technology started but to reach the mainstream audience, the technology has to leap the chasm in the adoption curve.

      I feel Idea Place is in it's infancy. It's got lot's of things wrong with it, can barely walk, cries a lot, needs to be fed all the time... but with some good parenting from supportive community members and product teams, Idea Place will make it to adulthood and become a significant contributor the community. But until then, we may all have to change a lot of diapers. 🙂

      Cheers

      Kuhan

      Author's profile photo Vinita kasliwal
      Vinita kasliwal

      Hi

      I would like to know if this Post still holds as I submitted 2 ideas and got 2 comments on it so as per the points tracker below it should be different  :

      *****

      Idea creation:

      10 points to the person who submitted the idea.
      1 point per vote, 2 points per comment: given to the idea creator.

      Idea comments:

      5 points to a person who comments on an idea.

      And by comment, we don't mean "great!" but a constructive comment that will help the community refine the idea and discuss details that the idea creator may not have thought of

      POINTS SHOULD BE

      2 ideas submitted = 20

      2 comments     = 4

      However thy are just 10 points i scored.. Also would like to know why the same have not been added to the SCN account since I read in the article here Please let me  know if I missed something ??

      "These points, like all SCN points, will be assigned to your SCN user ID. Whether you are a newbie on SCN or an active member of the community, your points will count towards your lifetime points and towards Active Contributor Status: A 12-month rolling period."